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	<title>Comments on: 2 Legit</title>
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		<title>By: Menshevik</title>
		<link>http://www.4thletter.net/2008/04/2-legit/comment-page-1/#comment-18187</link>
		<dc:creator>Menshevik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Apr 2008 13:20:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.4thletter.net/?p=1145#comment-18187</guid>
		<description>Dear David Pot, thank you so much for pointing out how black and full of empty snark that awful Steve Kettle is. 
 
Steve Bunche did not say that there were only &quot;about twenty comics fans&quot; among a sea of Jenna Jameson fans, but that among the masses of &quot;fans of Jameson&#039;s video output&quot; and &quot;curiosity-seekers&quot; there were merely &quot;about twenty or so comics enthusiasts who actually showed up to hear what the panelists had to say&quot;, which is hardly the same thing. From your comments it also appears that you think (or that you pretend Steve Bunche thinks) that comics fans cannot be fans of Jenna Jameson&#039;s adult video work and vice versa. I really see no problem with Bunche&#039;s description. It stands to reason that among the many comic fans who attended the NYCC there are some who like porn, some who are interested in the issues that are discussed at &quot;women in comics&quot; panels (there is an overlap between the two sub-groups, apparently including Steve Bunche, although he says he prefers Traci Lords and Vanessa Del Rio). According to Bunche, Jenna Jameson&#039;s fans (plus the &quot;curiosity-seekers&quot;) seriously outnumbered the latter group, what&#039;s so hard to believe about that? Especially if half the promised panelists were not even there? I also have to wonder if the NYCC would not even have provided a welcome opportunity to see J.J. in person for those of the fans of her porn work too chicken to attend and possibly be seen at e.g. an adult movie convention.

My take on Bunche&#039;s article: 
1st paragraph: S.B. explains why he dislikes &quot;women in comics&quot; panels. I happen to disagree, but appreciate his candour. 
2nd paragraph: A summary of what people had to say after the the NYCC panel and Jenna Jameson&#039;s participation was announced, with S.B.&#039;s personal views on anti-sexual prejudice. 
3rd paragraph: The description of the actual panel begins. Delay, two of the four panelists not showing up, the moderators, the audience. Yes, pretty harsh on the latter two.
4th and 5th paragraph: The show is opened with something that has nothing to do with the purported subject of the panel, a clip from Jenna Jameson&#039;s latest movie, &quot;Zombie Strippers&quot;. Subsequently Jameson by S.B.&#039;s account is more concerned and cognizant about said movie than about &quot;Shadow Hunter&quot; and what she says about the latter makes S.B. suspect she has not been in contact at all with the writer of the series.
6th paragraph: Amanda Conner&#039;s contributions to the panel were not appreciated by the audience, which angers her friend S.B. (the caption to the second photograph seems to say he regards her as one of his dearest friends) and he lets the audience have it.
7th paragraph: During the rush after the panel ends, S.B. chats with Amanda Conner and gets her to pose together with Jenna Jameson for him.
8th paragraph: Summing up, the panel did not live up to what it was supposed to do. S.B. would have preferred if it had been an event just for Jenna Jameson.

I&#039;d say Bunche wrote what he saw at that panel. Obviously his account is opinionated, but that is really unavoidable unless you expected S.B. to hand out questionnaires to the audience to find out how many of the audience were there for &quot;women in comics&quot; and how many were there to see world-famous adult movie star Jenna Jameson (assuming that everybody would answer said questionnaire truthfully) and one to Jenna Jameson to find out how knowledgeable she is about comics in general and &quot;Shadow Hunter&quot; in particular. 
As far as I can see he was not being unfair to Jenna Jameson, indeed I got the impression that he wanted to like her but was disappointed by what he perceived as her ignorance of comics and in particular the comic of which she is billed as the creator.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear David Pot, thank you so much for pointing out how black and full of empty snark that awful Steve Kettle is. </p>
<p>Steve Bunche did not say that there were only &#8220;about twenty comics fans&#8221; among a sea of Jenna Jameson fans, but that among the masses of &#8220;fans of Jameson&#8217;s video output&#8221; and &#8220;curiosity-seekers&#8221; there were merely &#8220;about twenty or so comics enthusiasts who actually showed up to hear what the panelists had to say&#8221;, which is hardly the same thing. From your comments it also appears that you think (or that you pretend Steve Bunche thinks) that comics fans cannot be fans of Jenna Jameson&#8217;s adult video work and vice versa. I really see no problem with Bunche&#8217;s description. It stands to reason that among the many comic fans who attended the NYCC there are some who like porn, some who are interested in the issues that are discussed at &#8220;women in comics&#8221; panels (there is an overlap between the two sub-groups, apparently including Steve Bunche, although he says he prefers Traci Lords and Vanessa Del Rio). According to Bunche, Jenna Jameson&#8217;s fans (plus the &#8220;curiosity-seekers&#8221;) seriously outnumbered the latter group, what&#8217;s so hard to believe about that? Especially if half the promised panelists were not even there? I also have to wonder if the NYCC would not even have provided a welcome opportunity to see J.J. in person for those of the fans of her porn work too chicken to attend and possibly be seen at e.g. an adult movie convention.</p>
<p>My take on Bunche&#8217;s article:<br />
1st paragraph: S.B. explains why he dislikes &#8220;women in comics&#8221; panels. I happen to disagree, but appreciate his candour.<br />
2nd paragraph: A summary of what people had to say after the the NYCC panel and Jenna Jameson&#8217;s participation was announced, with S.B.&#8217;s personal views on anti-sexual prejudice.<br />
3rd paragraph: The description of the actual panel begins. Delay, two of the four panelists not showing up, the moderators, the audience. Yes, pretty harsh on the latter two.<br />
4th and 5th paragraph: The show is opened with something that has nothing to do with the purported subject of the panel, a clip from Jenna Jameson&#8217;s latest movie, &#8220;Zombie Strippers&#8221;. Subsequently Jameson by S.B.&#8217;s account is more concerned and cognizant about said movie than about &#8220;Shadow Hunter&#8221; and what she says about the latter makes S.B. suspect she has not been in contact at all with the writer of the series.<br />
6th paragraph: Amanda Conner&#8217;s contributions to the panel were not appreciated by the audience, which angers her friend S.B. (the caption to the second photograph seems to say he regards her as one of his dearest friends) and he lets the audience have it.<br />
7th paragraph: During the rush after the panel ends, S.B. chats with Amanda Conner and gets her to pose together with Jenna Jameson for him.<br />
8th paragraph: Summing up, the panel did not live up to what it was supposed to do. S.B. would have preferred if it had been an event just for Jenna Jameson.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d say Bunche wrote what he saw at that panel. Obviously his account is opinionated, but that is really unavoidable unless you expected S.B. to hand out questionnaires to the audience to find out how many of the audience were there for &#8220;women in comics&#8221; and how many were there to see world-famous adult movie star Jenna Jameson (assuming that everybody would answer said questionnaire truthfully) and one to Jenna Jameson to find out how knowledgeable she is about comics in general and &#8220;Shadow Hunter&#8221; in particular.<br />
As far as I can see he was not being unfair to Jenna Jameson, indeed I got the impression that he wanted to like her but was disappointed by what he perceived as her ignorance of comics and in particular the comic of which she is billed as the creator.</p>
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		<title>By: david brothers</title>
		<link>http://www.4thletter.net/2008/04/2-legit/comment-page-1/#comment-18169</link>
		<dc:creator>david brothers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:46:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.4thletter.net/?p=1145#comment-18169</guid>
		<description>I wouldn&#039;t even say he was particularly subtle. He stayed away from the &quot;She&#039;s a whore&quot; thing, but dived feet-first into the &quot;She&#039;s worthless and her fans suck and also she doesn&#039;t know from REAL comics&quot; thing.

I&#039;m really kind of unimpressed with the whole thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t even say he was particularly subtle. He stayed away from the &#8220;She&#8217;s a whore&#8221; thing, but dived feet-first into the &#8220;She&#8217;s worthless and her fans suck and also she doesn&#8217;t know from REAL comics&#8221; thing.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m really kind of unimpressed with the whole thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Nenena</title>
		<link>http://www.4thletter.net/2008/04/2-legit/comment-page-1/#comment-18155</link>
		<dc:creator>Nenena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 12:07:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.4thletter.net/?p=1145#comment-18155</guid>
		<description>David;

Thanks for this post.  I&#039;ve been &lt;a href=&quot;http://nenena.livejournal.com/tag/shadowhunter&quot;&gt;writing about&lt;/a&gt; Jameson, Shadowhunter, and more specifically the *reactions* to both &lt;a href=&quot;http://nenena.livejournal.com/136753.html&quot;&gt;in my livejournal&lt;/a&gt; since &lt;a href=&quot;http://nenena.livejournal.com/86017.html&quot;&gt;the project was first announced&lt;/a&gt;.  And I&#039;ve just been banging my head against the wall of all of the blatant, obvious, &lt;i&gt;nasty&lt;/i&gt; misogyny that&#039;s been slung Jameson&#039;s way.  And I&#039;m saying that as someone who agrees that the &quot;Women Who Kick Ass&quot; panel was a stupid idea and that Jameson didn&#039;t belong on a panel with three other accomplished industry veterans.

Actually, Buche&#039;s write-up is one of the tamer things that I&#039;ve seen... Or maybe it&#039;s just that he&#039;s more subtle with his insults.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David;</p>
<p>Thanks for this post.  I&#8217;ve been <a href="http://nenena.livejournal.com/tag/shadowhunter">writing about</a> Jameson, Shadowhunter, and more specifically the *reactions* to both <a href="http://nenena.livejournal.com/136753.html">in my livejournal</a> since <a href="http://nenena.livejournal.com/86017.html">the project was first announced</a>.  And I&#8217;ve just been banging my head against the wall of all of the blatant, obvious, <i>nasty</i> misogyny that&#8217;s been slung Jameson&#8217;s way.  And I&#8217;m saying that as someone who agrees that the &#8220;Women Who Kick Ass&#8221; panel was a stupid idea and that Jameson didn&#8217;t belong on a panel with three other accomplished industry veterans.</p>
<p>Actually, Buche&#8217;s write-up is one of the tamer things that I&#8217;ve seen&#8230; Or maybe it&#8217;s just that he&#8217;s more subtle with his insults.</p>
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		<title>By: HitTheTargets</title>
		<link>http://www.4thletter.net/2008/04/2-legit/comment-page-1/#comment-18154</link>
		<dc:creator>HitTheTargets</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 07:35:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.4thletter.net/?p=1145#comment-18154</guid>
		<description>&quot;Conner’s efforts were valiant, but, for all intents and purposes, for what may have been the first time in her life, Amanda was the smart, talented, and funny wallflower in the eyes of a room full of wolves sniffing around the dance’s popular “hot” girl in a futile omega mating display.&quot;

It took me a while to even figure this out.  Apparently Amanda Conner is super special awesome and it sucks that that ho-bag Jenna showed her up?  Also all other men present were Neanderthals who can&#039;t appreciate her uniqueness?  Speaking of high school dances and desperate nerds...

Hey look, I was totally snarky.  Where&#039;s my prize?

Seriously though, what I&#039;m seeing here is a guy who would rather grab some easy cred for an ego buff than do some simple reporting or a complex, well thought-out piece.  I did the Fifth World article and learned I don&#039;t have it in me to regularly look at all the angles, but when called upon I can at least look past myself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Conner’s efforts were valiant, but, for all intents and purposes, for what may have been the first time in her life, Amanda was the smart, talented, and funny wallflower in the eyes of a room full of wolves sniffing around the dance’s popular “hot” girl in a futile omega mating display.&#8221;</p>
<p>It took me a while to even figure this out.  Apparently Amanda Conner is super special awesome and it sucks that that ho-bag Jenna showed her up?  Also all other men present were Neanderthals who can&#8217;t appreciate her uniqueness?  Speaking of high school dances and desperate nerds&#8230;</p>
<p>Hey look, I was totally snarky.  Where&#8217;s my prize?</p>
<p>Seriously though, what I&#8217;m seeing here is a guy who would rather grab some easy cred for an ego buff than do some simple reporting or a complex, well thought-out piece.  I did the Fifth World article and learned I don&#8217;t have it in me to regularly look at all the angles, but when called upon I can at least look past myself.</p>
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		<title>By: Jimbone</title>
		<link>http://www.4thletter.net/2008/04/2-legit/comment-page-1/#comment-18147</link>
		<dc:creator>Jimbone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 03:27:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.4thletter.net/?p=1145#comment-18147</guid>
		<description>Your post really reminds me of criticism of the mainstream media on their coverage of serious issues, where there&#039;s a lot more opinion on events than actual research and detailing of the event. Jon Stewart&#039;s rant in &quot;America: The Book&quot; comes to mind.

If someone wants to criticize the guests or administration of a panel, let the do so, but they really should play up the facts before the review becomes an editorial.

This is a lot of words to say I agree with you 100%.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your post really reminds me of criticism of the mainstream media on their coverage of serious issues, where there&#8217;s a lot more opinion on events than actual research and detailing of the event. Jon Stewart&#8217;s rant in &#8220;America: The Book&#8221; comes to mind.</p>
<p>If someone wants to criticize the guests or administration of a panel, let the do so, but they really should play up the facts before the review becomes an editorial.</p>
<p>This is a lot of words to say I agree with you 100%.</p>
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